Talk:Ultimate Shenron
Official Name Which is his official name Black Star Shenron or Ultimate Shenron? 00:55, October 26, 2011 (UTC) :*Researches.* 23:55, October 26, 2011 (UTC) This source says Ultimate Shenron is the official name. http://tsoj.manga.org/db/dbgt_chr1.html#start_names 23:59, October 26, 2011 (UTC) Don't we need more evidence? 00:00, October 27, 2011 (UTC)vegeta17 It is listed in Dragon Ball Z: Ultimate Tenkaichi that his name is Ultimate Shenron as well. 00:04, October 27, 2011 (UTC) I still believe we need more evidence. Do we switch the name of the article then? 00:06, October 27, 2011 (UTC)vegeta17 More evidence would be good. I am going to leave it up to the admins to know what to do with the name. 00:07, October 27, 2011 (UTC) Good decision. 00:08, October 27, 2011 (UTC)vegeta17 :So I looked into the fan site, and watched the entire episode that it referenced. Not only were the words "ultimate dragon balls" and "ultimate shenron" not used, but Piccolo specifically refers to them as the "black star dragon balls." Either that guy is just making things up, or he watched a fan-sub. 00:25, October 27, 2011 (UTC) Possbily we could add it in as an alternate name as it is used in Ultimate Tenkaichi? 00:36, October 27, 2011 (UTC) :Ultimate Shenron was already added as an alternate name. 00:39, October 27, 2011 (UTC) If this is the case I think we should leave the name as it is. 00:51, October 27, 2011 (UTC) Too right mate. 01:28, October 27, 2011 (UTC)vegeta17 :"Black Star Shenron" is not confirmed in the anime, he has been called like this becase the Dragon Balls used to summon him are called "Black Star Dragon Balls". Now we have an official source for his name: Ultimate Tenkaichi calling him "Ultimate Shenron". If no source is found for "Black Star Shenron", this page should be moved to "Ultimate Shenron". Jeangabin666 08:42, October 27, 2011 (UTC) That's a pretty good guess, but we should try and find out where it came from before we do anything. If he's called it in the anime or the perfect files, that would supersede the video game. 19:19, October 27, 2011 (UTC) :Not a guess, there is no source for Black Star Shenron. The dragon was called "Shenron" like the green Shenron before being renamed "Ultimate Shenron". 09:53, January 4, 2012 (UTC) So you read through the perfect files then? Because that was what the guessing was; that he wasn't mentioned at all in them. 10:44, January 4, 2012 (UTC) Anyone have a english perfect file link? 10:50, January 4, 2012 (UTC) :Perfect Files were only published in Japanese, and the "Black Star Shenron" name is not mentioned. :Here is the scans of the Perfect Files: http://www.myfavoritegames.com/images.aspx?f=DBGT_Perfect_Files%2fPerfect_File_1_Complete&n=1 :As it is Japanese only guides, I've checked the name used for this dragon in the Japanese wikipedia: they call him 神龍（赤）, which means "Shenron (red)", as the only official name for him before UT was "Shenron". 11:01, January 4, 2012 (UTC) :With "Black Star Shenron" not being official, can the page be moved to "Ultimate Shenron"? 16:05, January 7, 2012 (UTC) :I agree with you Jeangabin, Ultimate Shenron has really been the only official name he has had apart from the Shenron (Red) you've shown. Having the name "Black Star Shenron" is fanon really. So I agree with it being moved. 16:11, January 7, 2012 (UTC) Well I'm clearly the minority, so I yield, lol. 00:59, January 8, 2012 (UTC) :Thank you ;D 08:28, January 8, 2012 (UTC) Edit wars ~ Jeanie come here!!!! Since the dragon balls become inert when Nameless Namek separates, so technically, the dragon does die because of this 22:26, June 11, 2013 (UTC) :I don't think the Dragon really exists in between summons. Do we ever see him otherwise? 01:09, June 12, 2013 (UTC) Yea I think that too. The dragon is inside the balls, and they summon him by uniting his seven 'parts'. 01:12, June 12, 2013 (UTC) :I would say he's more a visual view of Kami's power than like, a living thing. Then again maybe in DBZ those are kind of the same. We discuss weird things on this site : x 01:14, June 12, 2013 (UTC) In the manga, maybe. But in GT the dragons have free will. Then... Can I undo Jeanie's edits? 01:20, June 12, 2013 (UTC) :Let's hear from everyone, then decide. Jean, what's your stance? 01:32, June 12, 2013 (UTC) The dragon doesn't die, since his creator doesn't die. There is no proof the Black Star DBs were desactivated while Piccolo and Kami were split. And even if they were, the regular DBs are desactivated after each usage, Sheron doesn't die because of this, he's just not summoned during this time. It's the same with Ultimate Shenron. 00:34, June 13, 2013 (UTC) :B-but when the Namek split, he no longer exists. Similarly, when Piccolo fuses with Kami, he (Kami) doesn't exist anymore, that's why the Dragon Balls are deactivated. It's like this, I think it's enough proof. If you disagree, I hate you and you can't play with me anymore. 00:49, June 13, 2013 (UTC) I think it's a fair assumption to make that a lack of the Nameless Namek meant the Ultimate Shenron was gone, considering that the existence of the Nameless Namek meant that the original Shenron was gone. Whether he was alive or dead is a different question, but I think that the dragons in the manga are living beings (enough to be able to be killed by King Piccolo, which is enough for me, even if they don't go to Other World), and that the lack of their creator means their death, or at least their lack of existence. 02:37, June 13, 2013 (UTC) :Exact! You can play with me. Now it's Jeanie's turn to read and agree with me, because if he disagrees, he won't play with me anymore. And I won't show you my awesome Pokemon collection 03:02, June 13, 2013 (UTC) But it doesn't kill the dragon. There is no proof Ultimate Shenron dies. The date of death you want to add is not confirmed, and it's not even logic. The Nameless Namek doesn't die, he's split. No official source stating he was dead, no add. Also, it's not because your parents die that you no longer exist. It's not because Osamu Tezuka died that Astro Boy no longer exist. Even more, there is no confirmation that the Black Star DBs were desactivated in DB and DBZ. All we know is that they were kept on Kami's Lookout in GT, and no information were given about their state in DB and DBZ. The dragon wasn't summoned during this time, that's all we know. In fact, we shouldn't even list Piccolo's date of death as that of Ultimate Shenron. When Guru died, Porunga remained alive, when Piccolo died in GT, Shenron was still alive. These show that the dragons don't die when their creator die. 13:09, June 13, 2013 (UTC) :Are you serious? When Piccolo died in GT, Shenron is still alive because Dende is the one that recreated the DBs, but Ultimate Shenron died, that's why Piccolo chose to die. When Piccolo died by Nappa's Bomber DX, Shenron died because Kami died, so they couldn't revive their friends and that's why they went to Namek. When they gathered the Namekian Dragon Balls, Piccolo told them to be revived first because if he revived, Kami would revive and so the Earth's Dragon Balls. When Guru died, Porunga did die, and Vegeta's wish to become immortal was stopped. When Guru died again on Earth, Porunga didn't die because Guru passed his authority to Moori. Nameless Namek is a person, Piccolo and Kami are different people. Nameless Namek created Ultimate Shenron, when he separated himself, he no longer exists, but Piccolo and Kami do. Kami created the regular Shenron. When Kami fused with Piccolo, Piccolo and Kami stopped existing (Nameless Namek was reborn) and so did Shenron, because Kami created Shenron. Shenron was remade when Goku took Dende to be Earth's guardian. 16:16, June 13, 2013 (UTC) As long as both parts of him are alive and well, I think the dragon probably still exists. All parts of him still exist, and they could merge back together if they wanted. Either way, the fact that there are two sides of this conversation seems like enough to merit both claims as speculation. We should be 100% sure before added it to an article. For this reason, I don't think we should claim a "death". 22:53, June 13, 2013 (UTC) :I think it's two-way: Kami fuses with Piccolo - Shenron stops existing. Namaless Namek separates - Ultimate Shenron stops existing. But, meh, you guys are too hard e_e. I won't invite you to my birthday party. 01:30, June 14, 2013 (UTC) Although ambiguous, I think it's fair to say Ultimate Shenron would would die without Nameless Namek. 17:01, June 15, 2013 (UTC) :Don't confuse the Dragon Balls with the dragon. When Kami/Piccolo dies, the Dragon Balls are desactivated, and thus the dragon cannot be summoned anymore. Nothing is said about the dragon dying when its creator dies. 17:08, June 15, 2013 (UTC) Fair point. We see that the dragons can be created, killed, and summoned. We have seen the sculpture used to create a dragon, but I do not think we have seen a sculpture shatter when the Namekian who made it dies. In fact, I think Dende uses the same one that Kami did, implying that Shenron survived the creators death. Perhaps summoning is tied to the creator's life, the dragon's life is tied to the sculpture, and there is no crossover. In any case, still all pretty much speculation and our own reasoning, which isn't suitable for articles. 18:00, June 15, 2013 (UTC) :That being said, then we should remove Shenron's date of death in Age 767 (alternate timeline), because Future Piccolo dies in this year, and so does Kami, but following your logic, Shenron doesn't. As well as Porunga's date of death in Age 762, because Guru dies in this year, and Porunga becomes smoke and stuff, but following Jean's logic, he doesn't die either.. 18:18, June 15, 2013 (UTC) I did not say that they do not die. I said that we don't know. Does anyone have any additional info on this? Quotes, scenes? 18:30, June 15, 2013 (UTC) :It's because those are the same circumstances. If you don't wanna add date of death in U. Shenron's page when Nameless Namek separated, we should remove date of death in Shenron's and Porunga's pages because it's the same circunstance. (Also, I mean Jean said they do not die) 18:36, June 15, 2013 (UTC) :I think it would be fair to say that the eternal dragons exist as a manifestation of their creator's power, but not the same being as their creator. Following that logic, it could be infered that the death of the dragon's creator would result in the dragon ceasing to exist rather than it actually dying. : Electric Frog (talk) 02:19, April 11, 2015 (UTC) Second Creator: i thought Piccolo was the second creator of the black star dragon balls, since they were deactivated when Kami and King Piccolo split apart and later revived after Piccolo and Kami merged as one. the page even mentions them being destroyed after piccolo is killed after kid buu destroys the earth and is later revived.Nikon23 02:30, March 20, 2014 (UTC) :When Kami and Piccolo are merged, they are the Nameless Namekian. He is listed as the creator. 03:09, March 20, 2014 (UTC)